Woman; A Conversation with Gloria Steinem

No. And welcome to Woman. My guest this evening is Gloria Steinem. Gloria is a writer

and editor of Ms. Magazine and a member of the advisory board of the National Women's Political Caucus. Gloria, welcome to the show. Thank you. Gloria what were you doing and thinking and saying the year The Feminine Mystique came out? Mm, I hate to think. [Laughter] Well let's see, I was, I was making my living as a freelance writer in New York. I understood what made me feel angry and humiliated, but I didn't understand why. Um, I dealt with it just by not ever wanting to write about women's subjects. And um, I guess I was still flattered when someone said to me, "You write like a man," I would say, "Thank you." [laughter] And I, I managed to read the whole book and never consider that it applied to me because it seemed to me to be addressed to women who were living in the suburbs, who did not have work outside the home, and who were looking for this other identity. Now I wasn't married, I didn't have kids, I wasn't living in the suburbs so I thought it didn't apply to me. And it wasn't until um,

several years later when the women out of the left, you know out of STS, out of Snick, out of many of those groups began to, to really talk about feminism in a political way that made it clear that it was something that concerned all women. You know, that they were really talking about a caste system which was the underlying um power structure in the country. And then I finally began to see that it did in fact affect every woman and me too, in the office, and begin to see the reasons why I had felt, um, angry or humiliated in all these situations the reasons why I didn't associate with women as a group, because it was a great penalty for doing that. [clears throat] The best thing to be, of course, was the only woman in a, in a group of men, and also the reasons why I, I had always felt attracted to and identified with causes of groups not my own - uh, black groups, of, of Chicano groups, and so on. Because... I mean I had

not before understood that uh, that I too was part of a powerless or less powerful caste, and naturally therefore, you know, I, I felt, you know, attracted to this kind of coalition. But I certainly hadn't understood it. When and how is your consciousness raised? I guess what I really want to know is, did you have a click? Maybe we better define click. Define click. OK. [laughter] Well, click was invented, as far as I know, by Jane O'Reilly in the preview issue of Ms. Magazine in 1972. Uh, she wrote a piece called The Housewife's Moment of Truth, and she gave a number of illustrations such as a woman [clear throat] having piled all kinds of stuff on the stairs for the next person who went upstairs to take upstairs. Uh, hearing from her husband, "You know what is all this junk on the stairs? Why don't you [laughter] take it up?" And she thinks to herself, "Wait a minute, you have 2 hands." [laughter] Click. You know. When she finally understands in some way, big or small, that the system is got

not to do with justice or biology or anything else; that it's, that it's a power system. That's a click. [laughter] And, and for me the first, uh, memorable and important one was uh, an abortion speak out in 1968 or 9. When the New York State Legislature had had a, a hearing on the then not-yet-liberalized abortion law in New York State, uh, to which they invited to testify 14 men and 1 nun. So, {laughs}. Wait, I wanna get that right. {laughs}. That was their idea of expertise on abortion: Fourteen men and one nun. So, the feminist groups, especially Red Stocking, great radical, feminist group to which I will be grateful to my dying day. They organized a uh, a speak out on abortion, a counter testimony so that women could speak their true life experience. And there were several hundred women gathered together in a church in, in New York, and

women from the group began to get up and talk about their experience in having uh, been pregnant, needing an abortion, going out and looking for one, risking their lives, uh, even being bargained with. Yes, they could have an abortion if they would be sterilized or uh, really having to enter a kind of criminal world otherwise. I mean it's just extraordinarily moving experiences that you could see these women had never spoken out about in public before. And I had had an abortion many years before and never told anyone. Because this was this kind of criminal shameful act, you know. And then... And I began to realize, but wait a minute, you know, if, if 1 out of 4 or maybe even 1 out of 3 adult women has had an abortion then why is this an aberration? I mean why is this... It's our bodies, you know, why is it not our right? And I began to see what, of course, the radical feminists were, were saying in the first place which was that, you know, it is a

caste for all men that, that women um, are an oppressed group. I mean women are kind of literally the means of production which the male in the family or the patriarchal state has to control. And, and you know really to see it politically. And then finally I understood that even though I was not married living in the suburbs and... [laughter] You know, that it, that it was a problem that uh, that affected absolutely every woman. I'd like to talk a little bit about the current economic situation a kind of depression that we're in were in and how that - how you feel it affects the movement. Well um I think you know economic issues, survival issues have always been the main emphasis of the women's movement no matter how much the press has made it seem that it was about opening doors and lighting cigarettes {laughs} in order to, to brush it aside. That has never been the case obviously for most women in this country the problem is survival. If you, you consider to throw in one, you know, statistic for argument's sake, that of all the jobs that

pay $15,000 a year or more um eh that ninety four percent are held by white males. It's a pretty effective caste system Pretty effective statistics {laughs}. Right, with, with the other six per cent left over for all women and uh for minority men, you really began to see it was a pretty rough situation especially for older women, I mean women over 65 are the single poorest group of people in this country whatever the race of the woman. And for female-headed families. So it's you know it's always been the emphasis but now of course it's even more severe uh because we get female unemployment going up much, much higher and faster. It's gone up about 40 percent just in the past four or five years. It's gone up, not down? Female unemployment. Yes. Unemployment. Yeah. It's gone up. Has gone up eh enormously yeah. And there are at least two million and probably more women and kids on welfare just in the past few years.

So it's uh you know it really is more and more about survival and part of what we try to do is educational. You know to, to just to try to make everyone, men and women, understand that women work because they need to work so that in this depression we won't get what we had in the last depression which was that women simply because they were women were put out of work and it was assumed that men just because they were men needed it more. Um, there are many other kinds of educational, I mean we we tried to figure out women especially white women are always thought not to need the job. So we spent some time at the magazine for an issue we did on money trying to figure out uh how to count up statistically all the women who at this moment could count on being supported by a man or by the man's money until the woman's death. Versus all the men who could, who had at this moment

enough money to survive until their death. And of course the men outnumbered the women so if you're going to ask somebody do you really need this job you know you really ought to ask a white man that's who needs it least {chuckles}. But it's, it's, that's not the point of course, I mean except for education because it should be um ability to, to do the job and and to represent the population fairly in the jobs and so on. So but the educational effort is, is part of it. Uh organizing, uh is is another part trying to to to help us have the self-confidence to understand that it's not our fault. You know I think that's the purpose response of many women if they're fired or chastised in some, some way or are not given a promotion you know that somehow it's their fault but to look at the comparable people in jobs and compare with that rather than comparing to the ideal um to

not be afraid to speak out and to question the system. I mean why should it be, why should seniority be the only system that functions in terms of you know who retains the jobs; why should the people with seniority also get the overtime. Doesn't make sense. You know, I mean why shouldn't we be able to spread the workload out and and allow more people to survive. So to you know the strength to understand it's not our fault, to challenge it and then also um information on how to organize effectively um inside any kind of structure. I mean that's much of what all feminist groups do, is much of what the magazine tries to give out in terms of information. And part of that also is uh is forming coalitions. Uh, any time any really rough economic time is going to really is gonna increase the problem of trying to turn the outgroups against each other and keep them all fighting each other rather than directing their efforts toward people who really have the power.

So we, we try to stress that very hard in whatever its form. You know whether it's making it clear that women of all races and minority men are in this thing together and if we fight each other we've had it you know or whether it's um showing that uh say if if the students in the faculty women both have issues it's stronger if they get together on those issues and support each other 'cause the students are the consumers right, I mean they, you know they have some power there. The faculty may be much more cowardly because they are getting salaries. But with each other's support they can do more and even more with the women who um answer the phones and clean the buildings and you know work in the cafeteria and so on because because then you join your issues and you know that means that instead of just having a strike in English department which might not be too crucial you can see to it that a phone call doesn't go in or out of the campus for a couple of days and maybe that'll bring results for

everybody. So it's you know it's tactical lessons as well. Sounds like you're talking evolution {laughs}. Yeah. When is that - except that that's really too small a word. You know I mean I always used to say that I always used to say we're talking revolution. And then I, I realized that why I was doing it anyway, personally, was to impress my old colleagues of the left because that was a word they took seriously. So do you use a different word now? Well I try to use I tried to think of a bigger word I would like to know one because I I mean what they mean when they say revolution is that they're going to take over the army and the radio stations, which is really nothing. I mean it really doesn't change the basic structure. You know the caste system that women are after. So now I talk about anthropological revolution but that sounds too slow. So if you think of a better word I would really I'd appreciate it. Well maybe some women in the viewing audience will have an idea they'll write it out we'll have our word.

What about the employer who uses the excuse that uh he or she would have to lower the standards for the job in order to employ women. Well it's patently crazy. It might be individually true as an exceptional case but it's certainly not general true generally true because women in the labor force at large are better educated than men in the labor force at large by two or three years. Women have always had to be overqualified for everything they do. So uh you know it's simply not accurate to say except in perhaps in certain professions where women have just not been allowed to have the experience, for instance a man called me a few months ago and wanted a construction engineer with five years of on-site experience. Well it's very tough, you know because what what woman with a hard head do you see out there you know in the street you know with on-site experience but with those very few exceptions they're they're just not uh

they actually have to lower their standards to hire men. You know if you look at it statistically. Do you see the exit economic employment issues as the core issues? Yes. Oh yes I think so because uh, well a more core issue you know we have - for the time being. Yeah but I mean who if you include it all. I mean that who who gives out the jobs, who has the power to do so, who benefits from the labor and so on, yeah. There is something though that's a little bit more basic and that's image isn't it? I mean it, basically I think image is the problem. Well.. It's image that starts and stops all the other things I think. Yeah. Well it's image, I mean you need enough self-respect to at least say 'no', I'm not gonna do this which is sort of I mean withdrawing from the system is kind of the, at least the you know the minimal form of protest and you do need some self-respect to do that. But um, after that I think one thing feeds off the other you

know you, you do something successfully and that helps your image and then you try a little more next time and so on. And it really has to do with power. I mean this, the sudden you know giving a power to a particular person is certainly gonna to change the image I mean. Chickens and eggs. You once said that the major enemy of sisterhood was women putting each other down and themselves down, actually. Do you still feel that? Oh yeah, yeah. Uh I would never say that, as some people are fond of saying - mostly men - that women's worst enemy is women. That's not true because you know we don't even have the power to be each other's worst enemy we don't care about the jobs we don't have the power to discriminate and so on. But uh to the enemy of sisterhood among women, certainly. Because we - we just absorb this the idea that our group is inferior. As I had as I was talking about you know.

And as I think we all have. So we believe it and we don't want to identify with our group. We want to be the only woman in a group of men or one of few women. And because we really believe - come to believe that our group is inferior just as as uh Blacks have done and Spanish-speaking people and Jews and I mean you know that's the worst punishment of all they, they - the system finally uh invades your head. You and I both had a similar experience recently, we worked with all women film crews. {Laughs} It was great. We both said what a terrific experience it was. I spent quite a lot of time afterward trying to analyze exactly why it was so terrific and you know how to make it happen again actually. What, what did you conclude about it I mean what was different? There was a um a lack of competition. There was none. At all. I think we were very supportive of each other, very respectful of each

other's knowledge. I was especially impressed with the technical knowledge of some of the other women on the project. Um hum. You know I think the first thing for me that that really knocked me out because I'm a very non-technical person whether that's cultural or personal, I'm not too sure, [laughter] Was to see all these women running the cameras, running the sound equipment, you know... just doing it all. I thought that was fantastic. Made me happy just to see it. um And then also it's true there was a very different but much more cooperative atmosphere. You really do get along better and there's no, ah, was no natural way. There was no natural hierarchy, there was... no nobody had titles or was insistent upon it. I think it's not always so terrific ah, in women's groups but when it's not it's because there's no work involved. You know when it's when when there's expertise and you can actually work together then I think it does function. And functions much much better. Pat Schroeder who's the ah congresswoman from

from Denver. Um, I went out to campaign for her. You know both times actually but the last time she was commenting that um, everybody in her campaign worked together terrific except she had to invent titles for the men because it made them feel very insecure not to have a title. Whereas the women just did what was had to be done with or without titles. [laughter] [Host]: That's interesting. One of the charges that is very often leveled against the women's movement is that it's imitative. [Steinhem]: um... [Host]: How do you feel that? [Steinhem]: Well I think that's, ah inevitable in a sense that is both because what we know is the world around us and because uh, well for instance I mean the black movement was always uh, in the beginning thought to be trying to be middle class white I mean that that was the great ideal you know. And uh, so women are said to you know want to be like men or want to have a piece of the pie as in the system as it exists and so on. But I think that's.

That's mostly ego. Sort of, if well as is if that is all we know that that's all we know but uh what could be better than to be you know. But also it's partly fear because it's sort of as if men were saying suppose they do to us what we've been doing to them. Fortunately it's not possible for women to be integrated into the system as it exists they're just too many of us it is economically structurally and every way impossible. But I think we need much more futuristic thinking theoretical thinking planning and so on uh about stating what um future tactics. Can be. What future societies different kinds of societies would accommodate feminism which means humanism of course. [Host] I haven't thought about that. Do you have a fantasy or whatever. [Steinem] Um gosh the most recent you say fantasy I mean I must confess to the most recent that

we're down to that. Came out of despair total despair because things have been going on and you know regressing and so on. And. um a friend who's uh who understands money you know. Marlene Krauss was saying we were we were hatching jointly this fantasy that what we should do is we should get an army of women and we should invade Saudi Arabia and take it over I mean what could be more likely to be freaked out by an army of women than all the Arabs with their feelings about women. OK then we sit on the all that oil and turn to the world and we say OK now deal. You want this oil Here's what you do for your you know women and oppressed them. Um But. I think. We do need uh to begin to outline the kinds of societies that would allow the humanist values we're

talking about and beginning at any level I mean the family of course is has always been the microcosm of the state. So you know different kinds of of family styles and lifestyles are themselves you know forging a different kind of society. What kind of structures what would be the basic values of this society. uh Whether or not feminism is really fundamentally anti nationalist which I think it's a possibility. So, But I would just if anybody he is listening to this was theoretically inclined. I wish that they would begin to to think about because I think women have a tough time tough enough seizing control of our own lives now. It's even tougher for us to think about seizing control of the future. Anybody else's future [host] I don't know about you but I'm worried about tomorrow afternoon. [Steinem] Right Well that's I mean that's a sociologist say that's the it's a function of class planning ahead as a function of you know poor people planned for Saturday night rich

people plan for three generations. So So that by that measure also woman are also lower class and we need to counter that to begin to have the courage to look forward and plan forward. And as a preparation I suggest that the people who are into this I mean not everybody is but um read the mail utopians it removes your humility. [laughs] I had to re read Plato for research for something not all but some. And I had read. Plato when I was in college with this fantastic awe you know while I'm reading a great book. mm Really. So I read parts over again and I discovered he's really not very good I mean it's the style was poor the logic is lacking. [laughing] And we really need to begin to um have the confidence to to think forward. [Host] Well you recently wrote a forward to lock fast else book. What do you feel about men's liberation do you feel that some men are having second thoughts about the

price of power. [Steinem] Yeah I think so I think there are. [Host] We have one man. [Steinem] That's ok usually you get to women at the end. There are a few men who are beginning to really question from their own self-interest which is I think what makes it healthy. uh The masculine mystique. It's it's a it's a prison even though it's a big rich well-lit prison and sometimes it's still a prison and they're beginning to question that not to say to women let me help you. You know like a kind of white liberal but to to really look at it from their own self-interested point of view and see the ways in which they have been deprived of their full natures of their full lives by this idea of what is and isn't masculine and Mark is one I think the book. Is very good and and I'm glad to see it's been reviewed well by men [Host] and women that weren't terribly receptive to the whole thing.

[Steinem] Of talking? Well, I think it depends how it's done. You know I mean it can it can. And what the motive is because there's there's a lot of very. It's exactly like the white liberals of of the civil rights movement you know people who would rather come and say let me help you then I have really changed their lives. [Host] I have to cut you off. I'm sorry. Thank you very much for coming. [Steinem] Thank you. [Host] Thank you for watching. See you next week. [Music [Voiceover] Production funding provided by public television stations. The Ford Foundation and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. [Music] [Silence]

[Steinem] And they're beginning to question that not to say to women let me help you. You know like a kind of white

liberal but two to really look at it from their own self-interested point of view and see the ways in which they have been deprived of their form natures of their full lives by this idea of what is and isn't masculine and Mark is one I think the the book is very good and and I'm I'm glad to see it's been reviewed well by man. [Host] A lot of women that aren't terribly receptive to the whole thing of talking [Steinem] Well I think it depends how it's done. You know I mean it can it it can. And what the motive is because of those there's a lot of very. It's exactly like the white liberals of of the civil rights movement you know people who would rather come and say let me help you with that I have really changed their lives [Host] I have to cut you off. I'm sorry. Thank you very much for coming. [Steinem] Thank you [Host] thank you for watching see you next week. [Voiceover] Production funding provided by public television stations. The Ford Foundation and

the corporation